I left the Catholuic Church a long, long time ago.
Officially, I guess I'd have to say it was when I started high school, here in the US, and we started attending a Lutheran church, where I got involved with the youth group (and all that "God LOVES you" stuff finally made sense... because the pastor talked about God's love, not how worthless I was because I was a sinner and didn't deserve anything God gave me).
My family had started going to a Lutheran church while we were still in Chile, but I didn't really get into it (the pastor was a friend of my mom's and his daughters were my sisters' ages, so they loved going to Sunday school, but my brother and I didn't really get into it).
The last time I remember actually going to Catholic church regularly was when I was in fourth grade, doing my First Communion. I walked to church by myself because my religion teacher (at school) said if we didn't go to church EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY God would hate us forever. My parents didn't go to church that often, so I walked there myself.
(All that effort was for naught, though, since when we did our first confession, before taking communion for the first time, I confessed that I picked on my younger sisters. That was my sin. The priest said if I continued to pick on them, then I wasn't truly repentant, so God would not forgive my sin. And I would go to Hell. Even if I said my Hail Marys and Our Fathers.)
My abortion was in 1999; I started high school in 1991, and finished fourth grade in 1987. So, to answer your question, I left the Catholic Church long before my abortion.
Monday, April 12, 2010
Did you leave the Catholic church before or after your abortion?
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Dear Anonymous Whom I Deleted Because Your Comment Was About The Comment I Left On The Other Post:
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, thanks for "following directions." Swell job on that.
Second of all -- now, I'm not really big on giving unsolicited advice to strangers, but since you clearly have no qualms heaping paragraphs of it in me, I figured I could make what's good for the goose be good for the gander as well. So here's a tip of my own, for you: LEARN TO READ.
That way, you might COMPREHEND what I ACTUALLY said about my relationship with God and about my current pregnancy.
Now, please don't make me turn on comment moderation or get rid of anonymous comments. Please try to act like a grown-up.
Thanks!
Grown up like you? Being my intellectual superior, maybe you can help me out here. Isn't your blog meant to provoke discussion? Please remember you are on the www for cryin out loud (granted, no one pays much attention to you unless Jill stanek does). Forgive my cliche, but if you can't stand the heat.....well, you know. And here's another question - why do you insult anon commenters? Or do you only pick on the ones that don't fall in lone with your point of view?
ReplyDelete*line
ReplyDeleteThanks for calling me your intellectual superior. Don't know where that came from, but thanks.
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm all for discussion on the posts where there is something to discuss. Whining? Calling me a liar? No, not in the mood for that today. Thanks.
(PS: again, reading really help. If you want to know why I "insult" anon commenters, read the explanation I left on the thread you're still commenting to, though not on.)
. . . and the greater tone of the whole blog is about your 'pro-choice-ness' - so I'm really missing where I went wrong on my comment except that your bad news has made you bristley. This would naturally beg the question (due to the nature of your entire blog) Why?? Since your mission ( as stated elsewhere on your blog) is to educate in all matters 'pro-choice' - please educate me. Are you saying that you really are sad because you really want this baby, and it's life is precious to you? I'm really sincere with this question. I asked - will Criss answer? Will Criss answer the hard questions that follow, or just the ones she's comfy with?
ReplyDeleteHow obtuse can you possibly be?
ReplyDelete"please educate me. Are you saying that you really are sad because you really want this baby, and it's life is precious to you?"
YES. AS I HAVE STATED SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE.
What is your major malfunction??
But I thought it was "just a fetus"?! And waitaminute...if THIS "just a fetus" is precious and everything...what about the OTHER "just a fetus" that it was ok to kill? I'm so confused!
ReplyDeleteYou know why you're confused? Because you aren't willing to LISTEN.
ReplyDeleteIf you truly wanted to understand (i.e., no longer be "confused"), then you'd take the time to read what I have written explaining my feelings on this issue. You would take the time to try to see what I was thinking and feeling at the time, what led me to make the decisions I've made.
But you're not interested in that.
You're interested in judging. You're interested in calling names.
You're interested in trying to "catch" me saying something you can mock.
You aren't interested in listening to what I may have to say (if you were, you would have heard it the first time I said it); you're interested in trying to get me to say what you want me to say.
Which is not going to happen, so please stop waisting my time. And yours.
Further annoying comments shall be deleted.
And you Criss are interested in rationalizing.
ReplyDelete"Further annoying comments shall be deleted" -- A statement only a primadonna would make. Delete away. We wouldn't want to annoy you.
Your mind is such a terrible thing to "waist".
I am only as obtuse as a bad writer can cause me to be, because you certainly aren't making very sharp points! (bad pun)
ReplyDeleteYou are the one that said you call a baby a fetus because of all the things that can go wrong!
You - "I'm fully aware of a fraction of the things that can go wrong. I know there are a bazillion other things that can go wrong that I don't even know about yet. Stuff doctors don't even know about, and can't predict or explain.
This is why we call it a fetus. It's not a baby until it comes out, and it coming out, becoming a baby, is not a given. At all."
Granted, you go on to say that you really want this fetus to be a baby, but not before you have misled your readers into thinking that by so labeling it, you have some magic talisman that protects you from feeling anything for a 'fetus' before it is born. You make us think while it's a fetus it's ok if something happens, because it's only real when it's a baby - i.e. after it is born - even going on to suggest that if your baby is still-born, it is not a baby but a "corpse" (and don't jump all over that, you are certainly right in the letter, but way off in the spirit, and you know it). Subsequent comments you make would indicate your feelings vacillate more than the Tacoma Narrows bridge, cause then you get all crabby and call me obtuse when I'm just trying to pin down what you REALLY feel (and believe it or not, I'm interested - doesn't matter my opinion on 'pro - whatever'. It's not like I'm building an arsenal to use against you or anything - are you paranoid or what??).
I don't know, maybe it's your hormones. I don't want to call you a moron or anything, but geez. I'm not the one having a hard time being succinct.
Now, that being said, maybe you wouldn't be so annoyed if you could find a way to convey your sentiments without sounding like you don't quite know how to square your 'pro-choice' agenda with the fact that you feel very maternal toward the baby you are carrying in your uterus. Even bigwigs in the 'pro-choice' camp are saying the reason [you people] are losing the hearts and minds of the population is because you stubbornly cling to the idea that abortion is not ending the life of a baby.
In my opinion, the difficulty with the pro-choice argument is that you all try to convince everyone that abortion does not take the life of a human being, and at the most basic, gut level - even when some people won't admit it - EVERYONE really knows that it does.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
And finally - Judging you(for what? having an abortion?)?
Hating you (presumably for the same thing)?
Please quote me - otherwise stop using that line on me. Hint - I didn't post at 7:12 or 9:52. Hereafter I will sign as
"C"
Are you the 11:26 Anonymous? The one who said this: "Are you saying that you really are sad because you really want this baby, and it's [sic] life is precious to you?"
ReplyDeleteIf so, did you notice how you answered your own question?
"Are you saying that you really are sad because you really want this baby, and it's [sic] life is precious to you?"
Do you see it now? Do you get it yet?
You know how we talk about "wanted" pregnancies versus "unwanted" pregnancies?
Does it make sense yet?
If you need further clarification, go back to the other post and see the link to the post on when a baby becomes "a baby", or when life begins.
(PS: if I "protest too much" it's because I have to keep repeating myself, when each anonymous asks the same damned questions over and over, refusing to accept the given answer. This is why it would really help me out if y'all could be bothered to read what has already been said.)
Now who is being obtuse?
ReplyDelete"Are you saying that you really are sad because you really want this baby, and it's [sic] life is precious to you?" [glad you enjoyed how I misspelled 'its' :D]
I realize that some nuance is lost in writing, but please! Do you need a lesson on the use of a rhetorical question? Of course I knew the answer when I asked - just using the question to point out the absurd.
"What is absurd?", you may ask. Ok, I'll tell you.
You - "This is why, for one woman, that baby will be a baby from the second she sees that second pink line appear. She has created life by deciding that parasite (because, technically, that is what it is) inside her is her baby. While, for another woman -- say, me -- that second pink line means a whole lot of things, but not "baby."
Yes, you aptly describe an emotional response to a real situation. Just because a woman denies the baby does mean there is not a baby. This would almost be a plausible argument however, except...
You - "For a split second I put my hand on my swollen-enough-to-make-my-jeans-hard-to-button stomach, then realized what I was doing and made myself stop. Because if I didn't, I was going to be in big trouble."
Why did you make yourself stop if your child had not reached that magic moment (in your mind) of 'life'? Did you make yourself stop so you could continue to rationalize what this society has enabled through law is acceptable....what boils down to feticide, contrary to every maternal instinct? Do you understand how aberrant feticide is? I think you do.
You - "You know why the beginning of "Life" has nothing to do with the moment of fertilization?
Have you ever met a couple stuggling(sic) to conceive? Every time that second little pink line does not appear, they suffer a loss. Because that child has already been conceived in their minds, and each time it does not happen, they mourn."
Once again, you make a good point, but your brain misses it entirely. Once again, even though they conceive a 'life' in their mind, they are acutely aware that the real moment life begins is when they see that second pink line - otherwise, why mourn? And in view of the juxtaposition of these two 'lives' they realize when the REAL joy comes,and that is when they dare to hope, that is when they stop feeling anger toward women who abort their babies for convenience. Or perhaps they never see the second pink line, and for them the joy comes when a really strong woman denies her own selfish needs, and carries her baby to term to place in their arms. Since the point totally eludes you, I have to say it really takes some audacity to rationalize abortion using the example of an infertile couple. You really shouldn't write as if you know about things with which you have NO experience.
You - "'Life' is much bigger than science. I wish we were that simple, but we are not."
I don't even know where to begin on this. Using the complexities of 'life' (our day to day existence, fraught with our problems, emotions, relationships, etc.) to rationalize terminating what is defined in absolutes by science as life?
God help us when we dispense with absolute truths to accomodate relativism in matters pertaining to life. I think you might be able to figure out some difficulties that could arise.
And the final absurdity - (to be continued)
You - "When I went to the clinic and they did the sonogram, they informed me I was three days past twelve weeks."
ReplyDeleteYou were 12 weeks 3 days with that pregnancy. When we started this conversation you were approximately 13 weeks. Baby #1 was not a baby. Baby #2 is a baby. First of all, I don't believe for a moment you actually could think this. To follow, do you not see where this reasoning goes? "We find the defendent guilty of murdering the mother, but not guilty of murdering her unborn child, because he did not think of it as a baby yet" or "we will not give this 26 week fetus life sustaining care at delivery because we have determined it's not a baby yet". So why don't you just stop rationalizing when life begins merely to ease your conscience. Why would it bother you to say you ended the life of your fetus for selfish (speaking in the truest sense here) reasons? Why does it bother pro choice people to say they are killing/ending the life of/snuffing out a baby/fetus. No one has a problem saying "we KILLED the cancer cells", or "we KILLED the maggots" If the baby/fetus is a parasite, a terrible inconvenience, what's wrong with saying "we KILLED the baby/fetus - high five!" WHY? Why do pro choice people want to make it sound like there's nothing of value in there? And PLEASE don't tell me you have already answered this question. You have danced around it, name called over it, given me your opinion and conjecture, given me one woman's rationale, but never answered it. If you can't authoritatively answer the question, do us the minimal favor and stop spewing your rationale as fact. Like I said (if you even read my last comment), pro-choicers should stop trying to convince women they aren't killing their babies, because (even without admitting it) they know they are. It seems more and more these days, people are getting angry when they realize they've been lied to, and you guys are losing the argument.
You - "You're interested in judging. You're interested in calling names.You're interested in trying to "catch" me saying something you can mock. You aren't interested in listening to what I may have to say (if you were, you would have heard it the first time I said it); you're interested in trying to get me to say what you want me to say. Which is not going to happen, so please stop waisting my time. And yours."
Well, first of all, you are the only one who resorted to name calling when you called me obtuse. And judging? Judging you for what? I can certainly judge your reasoning for what I believe it is (absurd). But if you are saying I'm judging you for having an abortion, you have no evidence. I can certainly judge abortion to be wrong but I am not YOUR judge. And although I am very interested in what you think, instead of asking me what I think, you prefer to call me names or catch me saying (or spelling) something you can mock. This doesn't bother me, however, because it's (<----correct spelling) your blog and I'm just a guest. I'm touched at your concern about the use of my time, but it's ok......really.
Still waiting for the answer,
"C"
clarification - "Why do pro choice people want to make it sound like there's nothing of value in there?"
ReplyDeleteShould be followed with -and then equivocate when terming it as 'killing'.
- because you keep me on my toes,
"C"
C,
ReplyDelete"Once again, even though they conceive a 'life' in their mind, they are acutely aware that the real moment life begins is when they see that second pink line - otherwise, why mourn?"
You lost me. People mourn something that was lost, not something that never was. When that second pink line doesn't appear, they mourn the loss of that child, even though it was never scientifically conceived.
When Freddy and I were trying to get pregnant and I took a pregnancy test, and did NOT get the second pink line, I MOURNED. I was angry, I was sad. I LOST something. It was just our first try, and I did take the test five days before my period was supposed to arrive, so I was able to get over it because I knew we could try again soon. But after a year? I wouldn't be "getting over it."
Why women don't walk around saying, "I KILLED my baby": Yes, I have answered this. (Again, just because you didn't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't already give you one.)
Probably the same reason people say, "I ate a burger" instead of saying, "I ate a DEAD COW."
Same reason they say, "I'm going hunting," instead of saying, "I'm going to MURDER INNOCENT ANIMALS FOR SPORT."
I don't know what else to tell you. I can keep repeating myself, but then you'll tell me I "protest too much."
"...stop spewing your rationale as fact."
Again, you have answered your own question: "...because it's (<----correct spelling) your blog..."
It's my blog. You are asking me for my opinion, my answer to these questions, and I'm giving it. The only things I state as facts are scientific facts (the fetus is a parasite; the thing inside my body currently is a fetus).
Re: the difference between my two pregnancies:
"First of all, I don't believe for a moment you actually could think this."
Then why are you still talking to me? We're obviously not going to get anywhere.
Just tell yourself I'm in pain and denial and delusional, that God will punish me in time, and that there is no hope for heathens like me.
And get off my blog. I have better things to do with my time.
My brother hunts squirrels but in reality murders innocent animals for sport. I ate a cheese burger last week but in reality I ate a dead cow for lunch.
ReplyDeleteYou terminated your last pregnancy but in reality you did what again?
No one has said there is no hope for you but you can't even say what you IN REALITY did.
"And get off my blog" lets all of us know how truly guilty you feel and how truly in denial you remain.
Not C
The cheese has slid off the cracker.
ReplyDeleteCouples facing infertility do not mourn a child that never was, they mourn because they can not conceive.
Answered my own question?
Your rationale is fact because it is your blog?
Never said it wasn't a fetus, but it is not a parasite. The definition of parasite is something that lives on or in an organism of ANOTHER SPECIES. Like a tick on a dog, or a tapeworm in a cat. Check your science book.
"Just tell yourself I'm in pain and denial and delusional, that God will punish me in time, and that there is no hope for heathens like me."
Ummmmm.... I don't know if you're in pain or denial. Kind of wondering about delusional now.... and I notice you have mentioned God punishing you a few times. I never said anything about God punishing you. Why do you think He would punish you?
Nice ad hominem touch at the end.
I'll give you a breather - you sound stressed.
As ever,
"C"
Oops! Wait - I think that in your last answer I got the sense of an acknowledgement that you killed your first fetus. That's a good first step. And just for the record, I'm not interested in tripping you up, getting you to say something that isn't true, or judging, or hoping that God will punish you. I don't even know you. All I know is that you put yourself forward as a 'pro choice' voice. Somewhere you said you blog to educate women. I just want you to tell the truth. Interject your opinion all you want, but for crying out loud, tell the truth.
ReplyDeleteOk....finis - "C"
"And get off my blog. I have better things to do with my time."
ReplyDeleteWhat could possibly be better use of your time then advocating for the right of women to kill their fetuses?
"R"
pssst - hey criss - did you check your science yet?
ReplyDeleteI would just like to remind you that a fetus is not a parasite (scientific fact) and ask that you would acknowledge that you weren't stating a fact when you said that (i.e. you were wrong). Ok? That would be the stand up thing to do.
carry on,
"C"
Hey Criss-
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to stop by and wish you well. Once I got here, I decided to also congratulate you on your amazing patience. And when you get a couple free minutes, I left you a formspring.me question.